Curse

guppy · May 19, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

No. Just no. Randoms teaches you nothing about real PvP. By real PvP, I mean modes where you actually build a team. You might think your Dolyak Signet build or your touch Ranger is uber, but these kinds of gimmicks have no place in real PvP.

I don't believe thats true. Where is the starting point for new players to learn pvp then? You cannot start in Team Arena and somehow expect to learn in pvp.. you simply will get demotivated very fast. Team Arena requires that you understand some basic mechanics of pvp, and RA helps significantly. It doesn't make you a great pvp player (I didn't see that written anywhere), but it does help players learn.

GedePod · May 19, 2006, 10:53 PM // 22:53

but is the reward great now for all the effort?

I think Guild Wars is sweet because it's so casual player friendly, but it seems to take allot of time to be good(like wow?) and that scares me.

Im not much of reading person when it comes to math.

I mean.. the reason why I play W/M is because with any other characters(tested allot of pvp chars) they die so very fast. I never get to see what is going on on the screen. all the debuffs, buffs, crowd control and all that other stuff in the top left corner goes and comes so fast that I got no idea what they do and what they does, and at the same time im having team mates who run around and do all kinds of crazy spells that i cant tell apart. sometimes they say "charge" or "im using bla bla on you" or something but the animations and looks is confusing and allot of the spells look the same to me.

im just wondering because i really thought GW would be one of does games were you could just have fun and play pvp for 5 minutes, and I guess you can but is it impossible not just to get owned?

I dont have anyone to play with. so im all by myself, and even if I did I dont think I would have enough time to dedicate myself to a guild. I love GW of all my heart and I will always play pvE...

It just surprises me because I love online Head to head, multiplayer on PC. RTS, RPG, FPS... Doesnt matter. I like it all.

yeah as another player said, its true you can also get more skilled at Counter-strike and stuff like that, but I just think that GW is so hard.

For example I beat this mesmer... i didnt know what his secondary Proffesion was because I never get the time to see. I just saw by his armor that he was mesmer. I kill him, and he gets instantly ressurected and then kills me.

I dont have anyone to help me, or anyone to heal me, and most people in play with in random arenas never lay strategies. they just say insulting words, gg or lol depending on if we win or lose.

i have won some fights, but always by just spamming 1-8 like a madman.

I play a warrior because I love melee fighting and swords. its really "my kind of archertype". I dont care if im supposed to tank, do damage, be diversion or something because I just like the look of my character and thats what gives it a kick for me!

Im in a small guild. we are only 6 or 7 I think. and none of them PvPs and dont want to. They hate it. I assume its because they suck at it(like me) and then they just dismiss it as crap. But I want to learn, but im obligated by this guild and I dont think I am hardcore gamer like WoW players to sit down and learn strategies and arrange-come-online fights.

I just wish there was more easy readable or watchable info within the game. within the game, is stuff like armor hit calculation and what weapon mods do explained?

Symbol · May 19, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Well unfortunately you've done a couple of things wrong in attempting get into PvP.

1) You're taking a warrior into RA. Random Arena is a very warrior unfriendly place, and IMO this is not a good idea if you don't have a solid grasp of what the various skills do. Playing a warrior effectively in the face of all the crap that gets thrown at you absolutely requires you to be very aware of your environment, what hexes are on you at any given moment, which people to target (since you're almost guaranteed to run up against block/evade stances, guardian, etc), so on and so forth. If you don't already know this-well you're going to find it very frustrating.

2) You're most likely starting off from a crap build. A PvE W/Mo is not a good base to build a PvP character from which makes your life even harder.

My suggestion is to watch games in observer mode, try and get familiar with the most commonly used skills, then use one of the better premades (aka NOT the paladin) to farm some faction in RA, then use it to unlock the skills you need for one of the FOTM builds (I guess in your case since you like warriors it would be a shock axe warrior). Learn how to play it, then once you feel comfortable with the game mechanics you can start to modify it to your liking.

Alternatively, if you have the cash on your character, change your secondary profession and buy the skills you need immediately.

Loch · May 20, 2006, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burakus Lightwing

ok- i must disagree with you. Real PvP?!? That's a matter of Perspective - an elitest perspective. I do agree that RA/TA is very different from GvG and HA

I never said anything about Team Arenas being terrible, just Randoms. Randoms is just plain awful for someone interested in competition, and I don't think I need to explain why.

Quote:

I think anyone with some sense can take what they will from any post on the forums. Some stuff is garbage some is great.

That's exactly why newbies have to be careful when reading stuff on forums, especially since they have nothing to base their judgement on. That said, newbies in general should be able to trust anything that the mods say in Glad's Arenas forums.

JR · May 20, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

I never said anything about Team Arenas being terrible, just Randoms. Randoms is just plain awful for someone interested in competition, and I don't think I need to explain why.

I actually rate Team Arenas higher than HA, in terms of competition. You get some damn good teams in there, and skip all of the gimmicky crap and bad attitudes. Innovation works, and you are not limited in your build by bad gameplay mechanics.

There is of course the few teams who scraped in through from Randoms, but it doesn't take long to get past them.

casualplayer · May 20, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Like many said here, you have to build a nice list of people to get better in pvp. those head to head games you mentioned are more one vs one type games where teamwork is small compared to gw. gw is all about teamwork and preparations so having connections is practically a must if you want to gvg or ha. you should start off in ha with the simple fotm builds then work your way to building connections with those you play with. overtime, you'll build a list where others will likely invite you -- they'll pay attention to you more if you play a monk. =)

Loch · May 20, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

I actually rate Team Arenas higher than HA, in terms of competition.

Yes, Team Arenas is the second best PvP mode out there for those interested in competition. The team size is small and the arenas are small, so it's all about how an organized four-player team can carry out a skirmish.

Compare this to Heroes' Ascent, where the team sizes are big but the arenas are still pretty small, plus you have the stupid altar maps where the fight is focused on a tightly-packed AoE-fest (and keeping a dumb NPC alive in the middle of all this), so the idea of positioning correctly just feels foreign.

Then there's the Alliance Battles, which aren't even about head-to-head competition - the random aspect combined with the constructed teams makes for some fun casual play. Unlike Random Arenas, which have you rely mostly on other idiots, and Heroes' Ascent which makes you build a full 8-player team and thus takes away most of the casual qualities from it.

So yes, Guild versus Guild > Team Arenas > Alliance Battles > Heroes' Ascent > Random Arenas.

Rieselle · May 22, 2006, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Hmmm, the op's post made me think of something. It's pretty obvious but what the hell, I'll share :P

In CS, a skilled guy can take out 10 others, but I assume he does it a couple at a time. (Or are there superplayers out there who can kill 10 people at once in CS? not counting grenades :P )

That's clearly not likely in GW.

BUT....

I think a skilled team of 4 could probably take out 10 other teams of 4, if they come at you a couple at a time. So the power vs. skill ratio is actually present just like in CS, except it only occurs if you consider a team to be the smallest element.

remmeh · May 22, 2006, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rieselle

Hmmm, the op's post made me think of something. It's pretty obvious but what the hell, I'll share :P

In CS, a skilled guy can take out 10 others, but I assume he does it a couple at a time. (Or are there superplayers out there who can kill 10 people at once in CS? not counting grenades :P )

That's clearly not likely in GW.

BUT....

I think a skilled team of 4 could probably take out 10 other teams of 4, if they come at you a couple at a time. So the power vs. skill ratio is actually present just like in CS, except it only occurs if you consider a team to be the smallest element.

just get lucky with your AWM

back on topic. when I started playing GW, all I did was pve. and the only way i even got interested in pvp was through random arenas. so i played random a LOT. accumulated about 150k faction just from playing random arenas. and through that and reading the forums here... i think i've gotten a pretty solid grasp of general GW pvp strategy. although i might not know every trick in the book so-to-speak, i just want to make the point that random arena is probably the best place to start for someone who has no previous pvp experience.

glountz · May 22, 2006, 12:08 PM // 12:08

I highly advise the OP to face the Zaishen and Zaishen Elite battles on the Isles.
Even if he is alone, he will need some minimal talent to perform them all, especially elite ones. Each bot team has its strenghts and flaws, and you will start here to learn the "counter-a-build" concept, as each team you will face is highly focused on a type of play.
Secondarly, use RA ONLY to test a skill combo/a character build. For axample, a build you have read here. Once you're used with it, move on TA.
TA is really interesting. You will always find new and interesting builds outhere to fight against or to test. It will also enhance your gameplay-teamplay. I often play in them, when our guild has not enough players to play GvG.
GvG is the true essence of battle. It's... really enjoyable, even if you loose. But you'll need a guild for that.
HA is... Well, I don't play HA.

On the wammo... I have a PVE one and I play often full warrior hammer....
The secondary is important only in some builds, a shock warrior/ele, or a plague touch warr/necro (it wasn't on the list? Oh my. So interesting.), or whatever.
In 8v8, the need of relying on your secondary is less important has every has to be very specialized. Except for the FTW Ether Prodigy secondary costy spells spammer ele FTW.

Kabale · May 22, 2006, 12:18 PM // 12:18

To the OP:

You have to pay attention to details, you can't just spam 1-8. That's like spraying in CS. You have to aim. And in GW this means targetting what you're facing, what profession is he, what secondary, and most importantly, what the hell he is casting. You HAVE to read the skill descriptions, eventually you'll know all the skills and can recognize stuff by their icons. Then you will see what is killing you or others on your team so that you can do something about it.

To me it sounds like you're way too casual and are more of a GW-Fashion player more than anything else. If you get a kick from wearing uber hot warrior armor then No, PvP is not for you.

AhuraMazda · May 22, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

To the OP.

Random Arenas get bashed alot, because the essence of this game is ultimatly builds of builds, in other words developed teams of developed characters, which is true.

But Random Arenas is where a player can learn to fight, fight hard, and fight well as an individual character. If you have the bad luck to have a woeful team, and face a mediocre team, you can easilly pick up evasion, situational non skill defence, learn targets fast and hard, and generally think hard and fast and develop that 'killer instinct'.

Its also true if you spend all your time there you will develop bad habits, but always keep Random Arenas in mind for kind of an excercise of your individual talents, skills, and playing ability.

I am a big fan of the Random Arenas, because it is random. Its like picking up your gloves and just marching into the ring without knowing who you are facing. Needless to say that amounts of times you will get sent home broken makes alot of people' 'edgy', however you can also find yourself facing the steepest of challenges, and come through.

As an individual challenge, test of individual skill, or a refresher course in how difficult it can be to play when you are not running some **smite through all opponents** build, there is nowhere better.

GvG and Arenas is where it is at.

Cirian · May 22, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Random Arenas (Competition Arenas) is a good place to cut your teeth on PvP. It's brutal and very messy and there's a lot of luck involved, but it's instant action and very easy to muck in with. Just bash away until skills emerge, and then maybe look to something more advanced to hone yourself further. You might even meet some nice people if your team is doing well and holding together... it's a nice and casual 'entry level' PvP, and as long as you don't take it seriously it's a decent enough place to start. Once you outgrow RA though, move on

holden · May 22, 2006, 05:37 PM // 17:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by remmeh

just get lucky with your AWM

lol

thats funny

remmeh · May 22, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by holden

lol

thats funny

very off-topic but one shot could go through 3 people... hitting for like, 120, 100, and 80 :x

or you could use a deagle and aim high

on topic: i started in random arenas, did a little HA and have moved on to TA 4v4 where it is very easy and fun to make builds and counter builds, meet other good pvpers, etc. it's a blast. except when you lose on your 10th.

trialist · May 23, 2006, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by GedePod

I mean.. the reason why I play W/M is because with any other characters(tested allot of pvp chars) they die so very fast. I never get to see what is going on on the screen. all the debuffs, buffs, crowd control and all that other stuff in the top left corner goes and comes so fast that I got no idea what they do and what they does, and at the same time im having team mates who run around and do all kinds of crazy spells that i cant tell apart. sometimes they say "charge" or "im using bla bla on you" or something but the animations and looks is confusing and allot of the spells look the same to me.

From this, all i can say is, customize your interface! That seems to me to be your biggest problem right now. Really, the default interface isn't the best way to play GW, it'll have you going crossie-eyed in no time, from having to look all over the place as what you are currently describing. As a warrior you have to be pretty aware of what hexes or conditions are on you, else you will be killing yourself with empathy or spiteful spirit or be doing nothing due to blind and not know it. Try moving the conditions monitor on your top left to somewhere more comfortable to you, i like putting mine just above my health bar so i always know what is on me, readjust your other stuff around too if you need to, just don't play with the default interface. Try consolidating the interface into a small area of your screen so you can just look at 1 place for all the information, instead of the default interface which kills your eyes, really. With the interface being more eye friendly to you, you'll realize that you will in time, learn to recognize the icons and not be as confused anymore, and you might even improve.

Lord Ertihan · May 24, 2006, 03:39 AM // 03:39

With the new skirmish mode in Factions (get factions! it's worth your money!), you have another option: ask if anybody is willing to help you "train". If somebody is nice enough to volunteer, then guest invite him into your guild, then do a 1 vs 1 skirmish against him. I've done this many times for my guildies, using my pvp-only slot to show them the basic builds for all kinds of situations. While 1 vs 1 skirmish is nowhere close to being 4 vs 4 or 8 vs 8, it will get you your basic skills, I think, and is probably a nicer experience than doing Random Arenas (although I highly suggest you still do Random Arenas anyway to gain even more experience).

torquemada · May 24, 2006, 12:14 PM // 12:14

To the OP:

As you are, at first I was terrified of PvP. It got so confusing and scary as hell after all those leisure cookie-cutter PvE missions that I thought I will simply skip PvP althogether. What finally helped:

1. I made a new char, a W/N. I leveled him to the 15th lvl and went into nooby Yaks Bend Arena. Why? Not to see good builds or good teamplay (heck you got only like 20% skills at that stage). It was to learn how my character class behaves. Also, in that arena competition levels are so low that you can also practice opponetnts class browsing (hitting TAB) and priority target switching at much more leisure pace. It's just enough to grasp the very basics - conditions, hexes, calling and all those things that you find confusing and intimidating also appear in those newb arenas, but are much less deadly (due to early game stage), so you can work out from there to distinguish when someone is buffed/degenned, what condition/hex is on you, etc. Sure, you can read about it, but until you get confortable with those things, you'll get confused anyways. As soon as you grasp those things, DONT LINGER there, move on. It could spoil your learning curve otherwise (coz it really is a terrible representation of PvP).

2. Read a lot. Try to unerstand classes and their functions in the metagame. Read the builds for the sheer enjoyment of it. Sooner or later you'll be able to more or less know what you're up against, what targets are priority and how the enemy's offense is gonna be executed. Of course, mistakes are possible. After each loss, try to see what turned the tide of battle against you (was it player skill or something else?)

3. Find a cookie cutter build, tested and proven. Practice it in RA, so you do get the feeling of 'build execution'. After a while, you'll get the intuitive feeling what skill is where and when to activate it. Judging by your teammates classes, often you need to improvise (odd classes combinations). Try to discern what are the good and bad things about your current party and try to adapt.

4. Finally, you can move on and go learn about teamwork - where your warrior/monk wont need his monking skills, because that's another member's role. Try to apply knowledge from above points. Sure, people might disagree and say that RA is worthless in means of teamplay, but I think it serves to learn how to play with odd classes combinations and supplement each others skills (after a few victories you do learn how to coordinate). These points should make you feel your class and it's role...so you know better how to fit in a team and what exactly are you contributing to it. What I want to say, you shoud get into organized team PvP WHEN you yourself know how to execute your own class and understand what the opponent brought to the table. When you get comfortable with yourself, that is...

I'm still a n00b in PvP, FYI. But I'm also very far away from my starting position (or so I like to think

) of complete obliviousness. And don't get upset over loosing and flaming. Means nothing (unless you are doing something wrong - in that case don't get upset, work on it). Heck I've seen tons of people that seem noobs to me and also tons of people that i am noob compared to.

Stupid Shizno · May 24, 2006, 12:39 PM // 12:39

Tot he OP:
I would reccomend going to guildwiki, looking at warrior pvp builds, and trying them. most likely you will die as much as you are now. You might even when some due to luck, and maybe, you might realize your winning more, find out why and go from there.

ender6 · May 24, 2006, 08:30 PM // 20:30

At the extreme risk of being flamed...

I just thought I would offer the consideration that RA isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Not saying that it is comparable to TA or GvG simply stating that it has its benefits. I'm still relatively new to PvP, and the fact that I just left my guild and now have no one to really teach me the ropes, well I enjoy practicing builds in RA. I also like the fact that I don't have to face admonishments for being ranked 0, and all and all disallowed to get onto a team in TA. And of course once you get onto a team, and you perform poorly you usually get flamed. So if you have yet to build up a network of friends/or are without a guild, then RA can be quite useful.

Further, I have learned how to use a monk build effiecently and effectively. I know how to handle hexes, health degen, interrupts, combos, and when to switch to my negative energy set, or even my surpluss energy set. I now recognize hexes by their icons as opposed to having to place my pointer over them and read their description as I am getting wailed upon. All of these minor things that each and everyone of you experienced PvP'ers had to go through long ago--well everyone has to go through it at some point. I personally feel that RA is the best place to do it. Because there you certainly can cause no harm, to your teammates or to your ego.

With that said, I can't wait to make it to the next level of my PvP experience, which means networking (as many have already mentioned) and joining a guild.

Not sure if the above info helped address your concerns about PvP'ing being complicated and hard to get into, but I must add that after doing PvE'ing, and now doing PvP'ing...well let's just say I pre ordered factions and as of to date, i have an assasin lvl 3...PvP rocks.